Changes between Version 1 and Version 2 of projects/membership-meeting/2012/virtual_group


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Timestamp:
Oct 28, 2012, 8:13:15 PM (7 years ago)
Author:
the Tachanka! collective
Comment:

brought rest of discussion onto this page and did some formatting changes.

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  • projects/membership-meeting/2012/virtual_group

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    11[[PageOutline]]
    22
    3 Work by the virtual group gathered (first) around IRC channel #mayfirst, after slipped to [https://pad.riseup.net/ro/r.u2wP8nLi0ipIMlUR an etherpad], where happened a very large discussion about MF/PL international relationship.
     3Work by the virtual group gathered (first) around IRC channel #mayfirst, after slipped to [https://pad.riseup.net/ro/r.u2wP8nLi0ipIMlUR an etherpad], where a very large discussion about MF/PL international relationship happened. This has now been entirely moved to this page.
    44
    55= I) Priorities, comments and specific proposals. =
    66
    77== A.- Reliability of hosting services -- Confiabilidad de servicios de hospedaje == #A_reliability
    8 * Ensure stable, fast, secure and reliable hosting services
    9 * Garantizar que los servicios de hospedaje sean estables, rápidos, seguros y confiables
     8 * Ensure stable, fast, secure and reliable hosting services
     9 * Garantizar que los servicios de hospedaje sean estables, rápidos, seguros y confiables
    1010
    1111> Rob K:  Consensus was that this is very important.  '''For many members, web hosting is the primary thing that they look for from MFPL, and they want it to be stable.''' People are especially concerned about uptime / reliability and believe that should be a top priority.
     
    1313=== Specific proposals ===
    1414
    15 * perhaps it could be addressed by using virtual  server replication and load balancers so that there's better duplication  (if server A goes down, server B is still running and the load balancer  fails over to that one??)...
    16 * What's the status of MF/PL servers regarding IPv6? If they're not running IPv6, then set that up.
    17 * Setup MF/PL servers in places besides New York City, especially in countries where there are MF/PL members.
     15 * perhaps it could be addressed by using virtual  server replication and load balancers so that there's better duplication  (if server A goes down, server B is still running and the load balancer  fails over to that one??)...
     16 * What's the status of MF/PL servers regarding IPv6? If they're not running IPv6, then set that up.
     17 * Setup MF/PL servers in places besides New York City, especially in countries where there are MF/PL members.
    1818
    1919== B.- Recruit  people historically excluded from technology, and promote their  leadership -- Incorporar a la gente históricamente excluida del acceso a  la tecnología y promover su liderazgo == #B_buildinclusion_promoteleadership
    2020
    21 * Recruit  for membership people and organizations blocked from accessing,   developing and having ownership over technology, and prioritize their   participation as members of the leadership committee, the support team,   the international committee and as representatives of the organization.
    22 * Reclutar   miembros  y organizaciones bloqueadas de acceso, desarrollo y   teniendo  propiedad sobre tecnología, y priorizar su participación como   miembros  del comité de liderazgo, el equipo de apoyo, el comité  internacional y  como representantes de la organización.
     21 * Recruit  for membership people and organizations blocked from accessing,   developing and having ownership over technology, and prioritize their   participation as members of the leadership committee, the support team,   the international committee and as representatives of the organization.
     22 * Reclutar   miembros  y organizaciones bloqueadas de acceso, desarrollo y   teniendo  propiedad sobre tecnología, y priorizar su participación como   miembros  del comité de liderazgo, el equipo de apoyo, el comité  internacional y  como representantes de la organización.
    2323
    2424> Rob K:  A lot of people were excited about taking more of an "organizing" approach to doing this work, but weren't sure how we'd go about it.  There was agreement that to reach out to people effectively, MFPL would need to be on the ground in communities around the world, or at least that there would need to be people there who were allied with MFPL.  We discussed a few experiences related to this strategic priority:
     
    3838== C.- Provide tech support to movement -- Proporcionar soporte técnico al movimiento == #C_techsupport_to_movements
    3939
    40 * Participate in and provide technology support to major left movement struggles
    41 
    42 * Participar y prestar apoyo tecnológico a las luchas más importantes del movimiento de izquierda
    43 
    44 === Specific proposals ===
    45 
    46 * Continue setting up and improving software/hardware/documentation that supports multi-lingual dialogue both synchronously and asynchronously using  text, images, audio, video, concept maps (e.g. Compendium software) and other formats.
    47 
    48 *  Arrange  ways for MF/PL hardware to relate with member-owned hardware  under   direct member control, such as home and office servers,  FreedomBox  (more  a software project, based on plug computers), mobile  phones,  community  wireless networks (redes libres), etc.
     40 * Participate in and provide technology support to major left movement struggles
     41 * Participar y prestar apoyo tecnológico a las luchas más importantes del movimiento de izquierda
     42
     43=== Specific proposals ===
     44
     45 * Continue setting up and improving software/hardware/documentation that supports multi-lingual dialogue both synchronously and asynchronously using  text, images, audio, video, concept maps (e.g. Compendium software) and other formats.
     46 *  Arrange  ways for MF/PL hardware to relate with member-owned hardware  under   direct member control, such as home and office servers,  FreedomBox  (more  a software project, based on plug computers), mobile  phones,  community  wireless networks (redes libres), etc.
    4947
    5048== D.- Help build the libre/open source movement -- Ayudar a construir el movimiento por el software libre == #D_build_movement_for_freeandopensourcesoftware
    5149
    52 * Help build the movement for free/open source software  and an open and accessible Internet, particularly within the broader left
    53 * Ayudar a construir el movimiento por el software libre y por un  Internet abierto y accesible, en particular dentro del amplio  movimiento de izquierda.
     50 * Help build the movement for free/open source software  and an open and accessible Internet, particularly within the broader left
     51 * Ayudar a construir el movimiento por el software libre y por un  Internet abierto y accesible, en particular dentro del amplio  movimiento de izquierda.
    5452
    5553== E.- Raise membership free software capabilities // Elevar la capacidad de nuestros miembros con las herramientas de software libre == #E_raise_membership_tech_capabilities
    56 * Raise the technology capacity of our members to use free and open source  tools for organizing, empowerment and security -- through educational  workshops, public awareness campaigns, and collectively improving our  documentation including by harnessing resources within our membership  network.
    57 * Elevar la capacidad tecnológica de nuestros-as miembros para utilizar  las herramientas de software libre útiles para su seguridad,  empoderamiento y sus procesos de organización -- a través de talleres,  campañas de concientización y mejorando colectivamente nuestra  documentación utilizando y promoviendo el intercambio entre los miembros  de la red.
    58 
    59 === Specific proposals ===
    60 
    61 * '''Engaging more people in solving trouble tickets''': Tezcatl suggested that we  should look for means of letting people engage more actively in learning  processes through solving problems together with the MF/PL support team. Also said tickets shouldn't stay open anymore since it leads to a lot of   confusion about how it is best to participate in helping others.
    62 
    63 * '''Need for both process-oriented and technology-oriented documentation''' Patrick G wrote about this and give some proposals:
    64   * Process-oriented  documentation means something like "Welcome to MF/PL, here are some  common tasks that you might want to know how to do using the MF/PL      infrastructure. 1) Change your website from name.mayfirst.org to  name.org. 2) Create a Drupal-based website. 3) etc."
    65   * technology-oriented documentation is what The Organic Internet essays focus on: learning how specific technologies work.
     54
     55 * Raise the technology capacity of our members to use free and open source  tools for organizing, empowerment and security -- through educational  workshops, public awareness campaigns, and collectively improving our  documentation including by harnessing resources within our membership  network.
     56 * Elevar la capacidad tecnológica de nuestros-as miembros para utilizar  las herramientas de software libre útiles para su seguridad,  empoderamiento y sus procesos de organización -- a través de talleres,  campañas de concientización y mejorando colectivamente nuestra  documentación utilizando y promoviendo el intercambio entre los miembros  de la red.
     57
     58=== Specific proposals ===
     59
     60 * '''Engaging more people in solving trouble tickets''': Tezcatl suggested that we  should look for means of letting people engage more actively in learning  processes through solving problems together with the MF/PL support team. Also said tickets shouldn't stay open anymore since it leads to a lot of   confusion about how it is best to participate in helping others.
     61 * '''Need for both process-oriented and technology-oriented documentation''' Patrick G wrote about this and give some proposals:
     62 * Process-oriented  documentation means something like "Welcome to MF/PL, here are some  common tasks that you might want to know how to do using the MF/PL      infrastructure. 1) Change your website from name.mayfirst.org to  name.org. 2) Create a Drupal-based website. 3) etc."
     63 * technology-oriented documentation is what The Organic Internet essays focus on: learning how specific technologies work.
    6664
    6765== F.- Serve as a leading advocate of radical organizing strategies that use the web -- Avanzar y promover estrategias organizativas radicales que utilicen la red   == #F_advocacy_radical_internet
     
    7876
    7977* Build a database / directory (or communication hub) of radical tech cooperatives and service providers (like  the Slingshot directory of infoshops) would be a  huge step in the right direction. Use this to build alliances, recruit new  members, and learn how to function as an organization.
    80 
    8178* Maybe facilitate a round table / community of practice to foment communication and collaboration between radical tech groups (I'm guessing this already exists in some ways.)
    82 
    8379* Coordinate with  other information hubs and networks that gather relevant groups, such as  the US Solidarity Economy Network.
    8480* Patrick G: Do a caravan of MF/PL members visiting each other and participating in events together (inspired by LibreBus Mesoamérica 2011 and LibreBus Cono Sur 2012).
    85 
    8681* Newsletters about what other groups are doing (already done in part by some of the Lowdown emails)
    8782
     
    9085* Patrick:  MF/PL  has sometimes been described as a "hemispheric organization of  the  Americas" and yet has members (and activities?) in Europe and  Africa (and Asia?). So  some clarification of (the) MF/PL vision(s) in terms of  geography could  help MF/PL decide what to focus on as an organization. I  guess this  relates to Priority G in a way.
    9186
    92 = II) General discussion about the value we give to the priorities. =
    93 
    94 (Rob K) I   think  some  of it comes down to the basic question of what MFPL is as  organization -  if it's primarily a provider of infrastructure, then    yeah, the most  important thing is the quality of infrastructure that  it   provides - if  it's more of an organizing front working on building  a   social  movement, then other things are probably just as important  if  not  more  so.
    95 gdm: Ok, so I think the current top two priorities are - improving internet stability (A); improving international collaboration (which is  probably closest to B but also incorporates some of F as we've been discussing below)
    96 
    97 tezcatl: I'd  be more oriented to E and B since that would be a clear priority in order to better our documentation, as somebody put on A priority  (reliability of services?) we should have better documentation, most oriented to processes and task solving. We were talking about closing  the tickets shouldn't stay open anymore since it leads to a lot of  confusion about where can we participate helping other fellows.
    98 
    99 gdm: I'd   put E third I think: some experience has been that organisations are reluctant to move to new providers if they can't guarantee uptime etc, and lots of groups still think in a very capitalistic way: we need to prove to them that free software/open source tech is as good if not better than what they are using already. As such, it needs to be at least equivalent in terms of availability for them.
    100 
    101 tezcatl:   Well, I agree A is above at everything, after that, I think "building unity" It's more effective learning together (E as a way to B) rather   than subscribing declarations (G)
    102 
    103 It was a pretty much most of time off-topic conversation, but there were said many interesting things about MF/PL relationship with other
    10487
    10588= Topics not included in the priorities =
     
    11598> And I think that, from the international perspective, the analysis of   this relationship doesn't seem very equitable, and I think that folks   that have some different perspectives on these issues - we're in a   position now where we're going to be working together, and we need a  lot  of good will to be able to work together.
    11699
     100
    117101== Solidarity with people and groups affected by the manufacturing of computer hardware ==
     102
    118103* PatrickG: As a group based on using this hardware, we (can) take responsibility to change the system of production and post-use.
    119104* Rob K: Yeah     - I agree that MFPL has a big role to play in solidarity with  FoxConn    workers and people being exposed to toxic junk yards in India  (and    elsehwere).  There is a VERY REAL cost of all of the technology  that  we   use.
     105
     106
     107= II) General discussion about the value we give to the priorities. =
     108
     109(Rob K) I   think  some  of it comes down to the basic question of what MFPL is as  organization -  if it's primarily a provider of infrastructure, then    yeah, the most  important thing is the quality of infrastructure that  it   provides - if  it's more of an organizing front working on building  a   social  movement, then other things are probably just as important  if  not  more  so.
     110
     111gdm: Ok, so I think the current top two priorities are - improving internet stability (A); improving international collaboration (which is  probably closest to B but also incorporates some of F as we've been discussing below)
     112
     113tezcatl: I'd  be more oriented to E and B since that would be a clear priority in order to better our documentation, as somebody put on A priority  (reliability of services?) we should have better documentation, most oriented to processes and task solving. We were talking about closing  the tickets shouldn't stay open anymore since it leads to a lot of  confusion about where can we participate helping other fellows.
     114
     115gdm: I'd   put E third I think: some experience has been that organisations are reluctant to move to new providers if they can't guarantee uptime etc, and lots of groups still think in a very capitalistic way: we need to prove to them that free software/open source tech is as good if not better than what they are using already. As such, it needs to be at least equivalent in terms of availability for them.
     116
     117tezcatl:   Well, I agree A is above at everything, after that, I think "building   unity" It's more effective learning together (E as a way to B) rather   than subscribing declarations (G)
     118
     119
     120= III) General discussion (specially about international relationships of MF/PL with other people. =
     121
     122Nico Echaniz:  it would be interesting to elaborate on how existing infrastructure  and  community hosting organizations can interact with MF/PL. We know    others  in the region ...
     123
     124Rob K: Yeah - even just a database \ directory of radical tech cooperatives and service providers (like the Slingshot directory of infoshops) would be    a  huge step in the right direction.
     125
     126Patrick G: I  mentioned above creating some sort of map/directory. This might coincide with AnilloSur and N-1, since those provide a way for participatory / self-mapping and communication.
     127
     128Rob K: Yeah,     and short of creating actual MFPL chapters in different places -  this    directory would be a huge help to people looking to connect  with  other   radical techies in their area.
     129
     130Nico Echaniz: tyes,     I believe this would be great. Maybe some sort of network, which  does    not necessarily imply MFPL chapters, but organizations with  their own    identities, sharing some common principles.
     131
     132=== Thoughts from people from all around the world ===
     133
     134gdm: (written by gdm based in the UK, but stems from conversation with ekes and clara who are in the Netherlands as well) - We don't feel that MFPL is very international - it's very America focussed (particularly North and Central for obvious...
     135
     136Patrick  says: MF/PL has an explicit statement to become a hemispheric  organization uniting the Americas, and I haven't seen anything in  writing or video about involvement beyond the Americas (I joined a  couple months ago).
     137
     138josue: Patrick there are a number of groups outside of the americas as active members
     139
     140Patrick: I brought it up because that's what I've been told about MF/PL, not as an idea that I created. It's in Alfredo's videos.
     141
     142gdm: Hmm. I'm not sure quite how to interpret that - does it mean, we should leave? Or, does it mean that there's something wrong with MF/PL philosophy, then? There are many explicit statements about MFPL providing technological access to a wider community, particularly groups that are of similar political thinking. Further, a number of the statements by people who are standing for leadership committee positions specifically talk about increasing international cooperation and trying to break down borders.
     143
     144PatrickG: I would prefer that it doesn't mean you leaving, though I also see some logic in geographical organizations. I think that with the wave of new members in Mexico, and the conversations I'm having here in Argentina, MF/PL is just starting to think about how to really function as a multi-local organization, or perhaps how to ally with similar organizations already established in other places, already providing functional services, such as Código Sur in Latin America.
     145
     146gdm: I agree there is some logic to geographical organisation, but there is also some logic to *not* organising geographically ;-) tachanka - of whom i and ekes are a part, although we three (inc. clara) all have individual memberships as well - is a non-geographical organisation, deliberately designed that way to try and overcome problems that may exist within certain legal domains. Tachanka has been a member of MFPL since it was formed and I didn't realise that there was an explicit statement about it being an americas-only organisation - this is certainly not obvious on the website (e.g. from looking at the about page) but maybe I missed that.
     147
     148PatrickG: Connecting the dots with a comment on IRC: 15:28 < rob_korobkin> how do people feel about the idea of creating local chapters - eg) Bay Area MF\PL, Vermont MF \ PL etc. seems like a necessary step toward accomplsihing priority two.
     149There's a video, and some pages on the wiki, where Alfredo and others talk about becoming a hemispheric organization. I think this doesn't exclude people elsewhere, maybe it's just a first step at growing to connect more places, by starting close to home where MF/PL started, in the Americas.
     150
     151gdm: OK, I've not watched the videos as I don't generally have time nor that much interest in video, and it's hard to keep up with all the wiki stuff!
     152
     153gdm: I guess the point is, that there is actually a growing number of groups in Europe who make use of MFPL services (e.g. hosting, drupal provision etc) and yet we get lots of emails about essentially irrelevant subjects - "there's a meeting at the Brecht Forum this week" etc - which presumably are not of relevance to a lot of other people either. It might be better to have more generic/relevant email newsletters, and then to have local lists (or something).
     154
     155PatrickG: I've been a member for a couple months and gotten zero emails, though I think that's a technical bug. :-)
     156Another point: If a goal of MF/PL is to break the north/south divide, that might be another motivation for focusing on the Americas, instead of focusing on connecting the rich northern countries with each other. I'm not saying such connection is outside my vision of MF/PL, I'm just pondering why there's a focus on the Americas.
     157
     158gdm: So, why has there been a big focus on MFPL doing projects in Africa?? (That may have preceded your time - I think it was around winter 2011-2012)
     159
     160josue: Africa projects came about for different reasons: 1) the world social forum was there. 2) sahara reporters joined as a member
     161
     162Rob K: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I really don't think there's been an active attempt to exclude any radical techies from participating in MF\PL - regardleess of where they come from. 
     163
     164gdm:  I agree with that.
     165
     166PatrickG: So, then, let's update the language of MF/PL to reflect this reality.
     167
     168Rob K: For sure.  Institutions of private capital sure as hell are global - we need to be too.
     169
     170gdm: another nod of agreement here :)
     171
     172PatrickG: I don't know where to begin, or what it means. I'd ask Alfredo, since he's the one who talks about a hemispheric organization in his video updates.
     173
     174Rob K: Yeah - he also talks a lot about internationalism.  I think he'd be down to working with our European, Asian and African friends.  Like, solidarity with Russian anarchist hackers would be awesome.
     175
     176PatrickG: I've wondered about where to find a map/list/description of similar organizations world-wide. Once we know who we are and what we're already doing, we can more effectively figure out how to collaborate on conrete stuff, such as service provision, service maintenance, training, documentation. I think we're in that process.
     177
     178gdm: Well, there are some political differences, so I think that such a mapping exercise is hard to do. For instance, I think that MFPL has quite radical politics in a US sense, but in a European sense, the politics of the organisation are rather more mainstream - particularly the hierarchichal structure (I've discussed this lots with Jamie over the years) but actually MFPL works well with several of the anarchist groups "over here"
     179
     180Rob K: I don't know if it's heiarchical so much as it's centralized.  Seems to be a big circle stemming from new york and reaching out to people other places.  the only real way i can see to change that would be to create autonomous, independent MFPL groups in different places
     181
     182PatrickG: With the influx of members in Mexico, and conversations here in Argentina about forming an MF/PL node, there are conversations about running servers in Mexico and Argentina. Even the concept of "an MF/PL node" is something I made up in order to have conversations here in Argentina about how we could participate in MF/PL here.
     183
     184gdm: It is definitely difficult, as much of the internet / technological systems are built on hierarchical methods. It's definitely hierarchical tho - and you're right, quite centralised as well. Autonomous groups would be awesome! But maybe a bit idealistic (we should struggle for our ideals though, no?) Maybe some better use of federated technologies would be good, although I'm not sure which would be best for that and I know there are already attempts to use friendica type things.
     185
     186Rob K: I guess, my vision isn't necessarily that we'd need to have autonomous technological infrastructure everywhere, so much as we'd have autonomous human infrastructure everywhere.  Even just having self-sufficient local organizations mobilizing meet-ups, tech co-ops, skill-shares, free schools etc. (a lot of which is already happening and would just need to be networked) would go a long way.
     187
     188PatrickG: Some people here just plain won't join if there are only servers in the US. Also, sticking with centralized server hardware ignores what's happening with IPv6, FreedomBox, redes libres (free/libre/community-and-user-owned networks) and other projects/technologies that enable home-based hosting and otherwise distributed topology.
     189
     190gdm: There is at least one server in the UK!!
     191
     192PatrickG: For some people I've talked with here, they will only join when there are servers in Latin America, and preferably in their country and/or city. Partly due to the legal situations in those center-of-the-empire countries. Partly, maybe it's easier to influence telecom policy in the country where one holds citizenship, and some folks don't want to be beholden to the US citizens and gov't to define the policy that controls the servers where their data sits.
     193
     194Rob K: To bring it back to priority B - if what we're talkign about is recruitment and leadership development - you don't need a server bay to do that, you need people on the ground and in the community.
     195
     196PatrickG: Well, in Argentina I'm on the ground, and folks from Altermundi joined the conversation today (nicoechaniz, alamela) because they work with Código Sur (provides services similar to MF/PL, in a way, though less), and they have the capacity (or intend to soon) to setup servers in an IEX that's being built in central Argentina.
     197
     198Perhaps my tone is becoming more argumentative than I like.
     199
     200Rob K: Nah, you're fine Patrick.  What do you think the folks in Argentina whom you're working with would want from MFPL?  How can we support them best?  I mean, I think that's the question we need to be answering.
     201
     202PatrickG: at any rate, all of this is left out of the CWD where official priority definition happened and is about to close or already closed.
     203
     204gdm: I think I don't / didn't understand what we were meant to be doing.... I was just providing a view from Europe as I don't really know how to feed back anythign into MFPL but thought there were somethings that could be improved
     205
     206Rob K: Tachanka - I don't understand it either, but I'm enjoying the conversation ;-)
     207
     208gdm: Me too! It's nice to talk with new people that I don't really know and hear their thoughts on the organisation :)
     209
     210Rob K: Yeah - I'm starting a section below where people can write a couple sentences about who they are and what they're working on.
     211
     212PatrickG: What do people here want? First, checking out MF/PL to see what's up. Beyond that, we'll continue the conversation in coming weeks. So far, Código Sur exists and provides web hosting and website design and maintenance to community projects throughout Latin America. But there's nothing like MF/PL in the sense of the Statement of Unity and the function as a hosting provider where I can make my websites myself, and the internal democracy of MF/PL is also quite different from the way Código Sur functions.
     213
     214gdm: There's some hosting available in the uk, of various sorts. however, most of our really political stuff we host overseas - tachanka has some servers colocated with MFPL in nyc, and some in Canada with koumbit.org as well as a few others in various places that are less publicly-orientated. There are also other UK collaborations that I think would work well with MFPL - but it's very hard to explain exactly what/why people should do that if MFPL is such an American-focussed organisation (as I mentioned earlier).
     215
     216gdm: I guess my big desire for MFPL is for language to become more unifying (on an international level) and less exclusory, and for people to become more aware that the audience is  very broad.... I must say, that if there are $20,000 dues to come in, that's probably quite a lot of members, including many groups which have multiple individuals in them, so that's a lot of people!
     217
     218Rob K: Yeah - I think there are so many people who see the power and value of the Internet and are looking for something that won't just be a front for corporations to data mine the shit out of our communities.
     219
     220gdm: Yep, that's definitely true over here too - lots of people share very strongly the (IT) values of MFPL
     221
     222PatrickG: Worth asking nicoechaniz and alamela directly what they think. Also, Santiago Hoerth, a founder of Código Sur, is in touch with Enrique (of Mexico), though I don't know how much or what their conversation is.
     223
     224Nico Echaniz: this is an odd place to chat :) but anyway... I'm nicoechaniz from AlterMundi/CodigoSur. We currently provide hosting and other services to lots of latin american organizations. We would like to talk about how MFPL and CódigoSur/Altermundi can interact to benefit both organizations.
     225
     226PatrickG: Perfect, you found us! Nico, do you know Tachanka? And did you read your way here from above?
     227
     228Nico Echaniz: part of it actually :) i just thought I would pitch in since you were talking about AM/CS :)
     229
     230PatrickG: Good. So, from what you've seen so far, what's your current response to the question of "What  do people in Argentina want from / with MF/PL?"
     231
     232Nico Echaniz: well, I believe we have similar objectives and it would be interesting to find a way to share resources for example. We do this with guifi.net in Cataluña, Spain. As you noted, we are planing to set up new infrastructure here in Argentina and maybe this (or part of it) could be a "joint venture" with MFPL. Our "target" is usualy organizations and movements where people have very little technical skills and we develop our work around that situation.  Our CMS is developed for this specific "target" (I don't like this marketting term.. but well); we also ara part of the CLiC mmm college? (escuela). It's name: Cultura Libre y Comunicación, which is a project focused in popular education on these matters. It's a joint effort from 3 organizacions (from cuba, ecuador and us). I beliebe we have much to talk about :) and see how we might interact; though this medium is a bit awkward  hehe
     233
     234gdm: What's your CMS? er, and your website? ;-)
     235
     236(response from Nico and Patrick): http://www.codigosur.org
     237the CMS is http://www.codigosur.org/proyectos/cyclope-gpl called Cyclope, and the documentation is in a neat language of describing the software modules as the organs of a mammal or other vertebrate animal.
     238and it's specific website: http://cyclope.codigosur.org/
     239and development/documentation in English: http://codigo.cyclope.ws/  (this one moved to the one below... we need a redirect)
     240...and some more http://forja.codigosur.org/projects/cyclope
     241
     242gdm: Thanks :)
     243
     244josue: yes, this medium has been very challenging for me. it would be great to figure out how to better dialogue with you all! there is ALOT for us to talk about, and work on together!
     245
     246PatrickG: As far as collaboration with MF/PL here in Argentina, one possiblity I see is using the MF/PL organizational concept (redefining what a hosting provider is and how it functions) and maybe even the MF/PL name in order to gather people together, and use some of what the new members here pay to contribute to buying servers for Altermundi/CS.
     247
     248Nico Echaniz: that  might be interesting. though, regarding name and project trajectory Código Sur is probably better known in latin america... because of it's involvement in the social movement since the first foro social mundial. so we should find a way to collaborate while mantaining identities... I believe... The opportunity to buy servers together could be great for all parties involved I believe. I don't know much regarding where exactly MF/PL hosts it's servers and wether it would be interesting to MF/PL to host some infrastrucrure here in the south, where, for one, there's no FBI :)
     249
     250PatrickG: At least, the FBI/CIA/NSA doesn't have official jurisdiction.
     251The MF/PL servers are all in New York City as far as I know, though earlier today someone mentioned a server in the UK. There are details in this support ticket:
     252https://support.mayfirst.org/ticket/5939
     253And earlier conversation about an Argentina node here:
     254https://support.mayfirst.org/ticket/6115
     255
     256gdm: The server in the UK i think is a monitoring server.
     257
     258Nico Echaniz: well USLA is the other organization I believe it would be interesting to have some collaboration agreement with.
     259
     260josue: there is a server in europe somewhere and one in canada. i think hosting servers with other allies/partners is a great idea!
     261
     262gdm: hehe, I was thinking we were discussing F ;-) I think it fits under B as well :)
     263
     264Rob K: Well even in F - the Internet can strengthen alliances and facilitate radical movement building without being hosted in the area where the content is coming from \ going to.
     265
     266=== What do people want from MFPL (extracted from above): ===
     267
     268(Rob K and gdm prepared this section):
     269
     270- To "see what's up," "stay in the loop" - be kept informed about what's happening within the radical technologist movement and hear about new projects that they might be able to participate in and utilize in the work that they're already doing.
     271- To help foster a sense of radical purpose \ mission to ongoing projects - uniting many different kinds of projects happening in many different places with a shared spirit of what this work is all about and why it's important.  Lots of projects don't really have that - they do good work, but they don't have the emphasis on radical democracy or the dedication to fostering ownership \ autonomy that MayFirst! does - it would be good if MayFirst! could help spread that culture and philosophy.
     272- To build a truly international community of radical techies \ shared infrastructure.  There are questions about the extent to which MFPL is really doing this (some in Europe feel it's too focused on the Americas), but nobody else is doing this either. Capital is global, we need to be too. Being positive, this can be done fairly easily by changing some of the language that is used and being aware that MFPL is now a much larger organisation and more widely spread geographically than it maybe once was (when things were primarily in or near NYC). We also talked about creating a directory of radical techies around the world, maybe eventually moving toward actually creaitng local chapters in different places.
     273- Share resources - as MFPL builds out its own infrastructure, people in other countrries working on similar capacity building efforts are looking to MFPL for collaboration and sharing.
     274- There were lots of suggestions on things that MFPL can do:
     275   * clarify the objectives
     276   * newsletters about what other groups are doing (already done in part by some of the Lowdown emails)
     277   * create local groups/chapters/mailing lists to connect people on a more regional basis
     278   * compile a directory of groups \ individuals doing radical tech work around the world.
     279
     280= Other Topics =
     281
     282== Solidarity with people and groups affected by the manufacturing of computer hardware ==
     283
     284* PatrickG: As a group based on using this hardware, we (can) take responsibility to change the system of production and post-use.
     285* Rob K: Yeah     - I agree that MFPL has a big role to play in solidarity with  FoxConn    workers and people being exposed to toxic junk yards in India  (and    elsehwere).  There is a VERY REAL cost of all of the technology  that  we   use.
     286* tezcatl: This is a point could be included as a practical way to implement priorities B and C
     287notes from the end of the morning session (posted by rob korobkin):
     288
     289= Who was involved in this conversation: =
     290
     291 * '''Rob Korobkin''' - I'm an organizer, writer, techie currently living in Portland, ME about to move to Vermont as part of an effort to radicalize the labor union of state employees there.  I'm currently looking for people who have experience overhauling membership databases for mid-size organizing fronts and have some sense of what the best media technologies are for reaching out to seniors.
     292 * '''gdm''' - member of tachanka. i'm based in .uk and have been closely involved with MFPL since 2005 when i helped work on colocation with jamie and dkg (also tachanka members). i had a conversation with ekes and clara (from .nl) on friday about feeding some stuff back into MFPL which is i guess how this side track thread started.
     293 * '''josue''' - co-founder of mfpl. on the leadership committee for the last two years. based in austin, tx. work for the progressive technology project, which has been developing PowerBase, a branded version of CiviCRM, specifically for use by community organizing groups. we currently have 60+ groups using PowerBase. all of it hosted on mfpl.  josue - would PowerBase be a good solution for a radical labor union with 6,000 members?  right now we've got a sql database with a super-simple Access front-end on it.  i'm looking for a better option.
     294 * '''Patrick Gibbs''' - joined MF/PL a couple months ago after watching it for a couple years. Participated in LibreBus Cono Sur in September and took conversation about MF/PL on the road through part of Argentina.
     295 * nicoechaniz is a member of Código Sur an AlterMundi. CS provides hosting and infrastructure for social movements and NGOs as well as "formación" through educación popular initiatives (someone please translate that :). AlterMundi focuses on appropriate technology, now mainly developing Free Community Networks.
     296 * '''tezcatl (Jesús Franco)''' is a recent member of mayfirst, first participating as translator for RiseUp documentation, presently I'm one of the translators of MF/PL, wikigardener and jack-of-all-trades in open source things here in Mexico, I've helped here several organizations to empower themselves through free and open source software and secure ways to use internet.
     297